Sour & SaaS – Season 5 Episode 3 – with President at BLASTmedia, Lindsey Groepper

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hello everybody and welcome to another episode of sour and sass i am very
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excited today to be joined by lindsey groper president of blast media welcome to the show hey garrett excited to be
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here thanks for having me well thank you and now before we just dive into it i think
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maybe we should set the stage a little bit with your perspective on pr and then we can get
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very specific but i think at a high level i’ve had the blessing of working with many marketers who sometimes think that
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press releases and letting decision or i don’t even know how to say their name is
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that’s decision is that right or you got it okay yeah they’re like you know we just did press releases on incision and
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you know we just kind of do press releases are press releases even a viable part of
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pr and like at a high level what is prdu for bdb sas yeah thank you for asking the question
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it’s interesting because pr to me is perception relations and pr has a perception problem in and
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of itself in that most still today most marketers and ceos still think of
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pr as press releases and as strictly a news driven function
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and that is a it’s an old-school and lazy way to think about pr
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pr’s biggest value is right or wrong it can be a perception equalizer so if your
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brand can’t compete with larger competitors on logos or marketing budget
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alone pr can create a feeling it can enhance
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credibility and trust it can be an equalizer and so in that in that vein it is not a press release
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driven strategy um there is part of a pr strategy that involves press releases of
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course but it’s so much more than that and any agency that tells you well we didn’t
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have we didn’t have much coverage this month because you guys didn’t have a lot of talk about like that’s and
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that’s lazy and you should certainly be expecting more yeah because i think the goal right of the pr
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organization is they need to help companies that don’t know how to tell their story to
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their specific audience to create one and i think the press release is kind of the final check mark or let’s say the
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checklist is did we do the press release but the truth is right it’s like it’s not like journalists are like oh my god
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i wonder what’s coming in hot on the press release today like right like i mean at the end of the day it’s a relationship driven
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industry where you need to partner with a pr shop that has good relationships with the channels and mediums you want
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coverage on it’s not like i can like i know this right i can’t just go tell everyone directive lands in victi and
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then all of a sudden ad week’s gonna put me on the cover right it’s not really how it works correct
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you’re right in relationships do matter i will say that they matter
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not as much as they used to when we started blast media 16 years ago
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there was a lot of in-person meetings newsrooms were fairly large there wasn’t
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a lot of attrition and newsrooms look fundamentally different today but even your best relationships
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only take you so far so despite our people having a great relationship
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with the wall street journal with techcrunch if we don’t bring them something interesting and know how to formulate a story that tells the why
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behind the what of the news those best relationships aren’t going to do you a solid and write a story that’s
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meaningless or has no value to their audience so it the relationship helps
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but you also have to understand what i believe is they lost art of storytelling in order to get those stories told
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yeah no i’m right there with you now let’s get a little deeper though
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okay there’s two concepts i think are really really broken right now in the startup ecosystem um and the first one
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though is this concept that pr is telling people about the money you
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raised so um i know it’s like i just as a marketer i
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absolutely hate the concept that like your blog or your website is like we just raised a series c from sequoia and
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that is somehow something your customer gives a crap about so like like why where is this obsession with
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talking about money in sas when i guarantee your customer is
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not like oh goody like you know what i mean like what is up with that weird angle that i just constantly see going
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on right now yeah for the life of a a scale-up or a startup funding is a it’s a big deal for
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them they’ve worked very hard they it’s validation it it matters it matters
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certainly more to them internally than it does externally um and that’s oftentimes regardless of the
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announcement the biggest mistake that companies often make is assuming people care about you they don’t
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and you have to give them a reason to so it it my opinion is funding announcements really help get in front
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of additional investors for the next funding announcement it’s all about the money right so take another angle though is my
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question like my honest question is there another angle to take with funding announcements that could maybe drive customer value because i get why they do
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it you get easy coverage tech crunch is going to pick you up every time alex whatever his name is going to write about you like you’re going to get your
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like the quick hits right but what about the fact that like is there a
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way to parlay this into something that’s less me me me brag brad because i think it’s
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such a like like how do you think they could do i know why we have to do it what’s the better way to do it in your mind yeah
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so if we’re if we’re just looking at a funding announcement you have to look at who they’re trying to influence
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investors is certainly one to your point customers not so much i mean it might
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feel good like oh look the vendor that i work with is gaining momentum cool but the other thing where the other two
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audiences where funding announcements can’t add value is on the employee side and that’s both creating goodwill
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amongst current team members as well as on the talent acquisition side um you’ll often times that funding it will say it
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is going towards uh hiring and so that is something good for potential talents to
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see as well as potential partners who may not who may we’re on the fence of is
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this going to be a good partner for us or not or maybe we’re like well they say they’re going to pour more money into development so that we can have this
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integration not sure and then the funding is the way way forward with that so there are other
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audiences that sas marketers take into consideration or should be taking into consideration uh
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when it comes to that a pr strategy specifically around funding but one thing i will caution is the
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funding is the what and journalists are getting literally dozens
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of what’s a day the what is the number you raise money who cares
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it truly unless you have a well-known investor or individual that’s behind it that carries weight in and of
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itself sometimes that’s the story um or if you know we have a client that andreessen invested in their seed and
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series a which they never do and it was a three-time investor that’s a story too um the
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it’s figuring out the who cares behind the funding that’s going to get us an actual story that matters
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so has there been a lot of money poured into the category recently has there
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been a category leader that filed for ipo what does it mean for the future is there is it challenging the current
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definition of a category um if the company’s looking to move into a different category so a lot of different
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things to consider but the the number and the fact that you raised is the what and no one really cares about the what
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you have to dive in to figure out the why to get a meaningful story along with that yeah it needs an angle right so now
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okay it is sour and sass are you ready i’m ready all right although i just before we
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hopped on i watched the episode you did with drew beachler the head of marketing at high alpha
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adventure studio his wife works with us and he i kept fast forwarding through waiting
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for some reaction it was very personal i liked it i’m being serious
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like that guy loves his sources do i start with the warheads i’m going toxic waste oh because i think
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all my warheads melted i left them out like too close to my window would i be starting with a toxic waste yeah go for
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it okay they’re all equally bad and here’s the thing lindsey the first one is okay it’s
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shocking but it’s okay the second one just builds on it and that’s when it gets nasty is it it’s that second one
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well and i asked jared if i was like cursing it tends to be my natural reaction to stuff and he was like i mean
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if if it comes out but like let’s be mindful of it so i’m getting mindful of it as we’re talking and i’m eating this
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i realized i already said uh bs once so oh it’s terrible
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oh gosh you do this all the time how’s it so bad for you i hate sour candy i don’t eat
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probably i just did this because it sounded good i didn’t really think through that i was
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gonna be doing this every day i’m like on my 60th episode i like sour candy
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okay i’m back i’m good um oh god what’s your take on books
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say that again books like what’s your take on books i think books might be the best form of pr
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because when i’m going through all the companies that are constantly in the media and have this narrative whether it’s on
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twitter or linkedin like they’re they have a story that is consistent story i try to unpack like what i call like
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let’s say foundational pieces and if you look at all the people that have narratives
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they also all have books yeah i mean like ray dalio if you’re an
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investment he’s always got someone covering him he wrote principles if you’re in bootstrap sas they’re always
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covering base camp they wrote books if you’re in high growth sas
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people talk about drift they wrote books i mean in general it seems to me that books
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and pr story narrative coverage are like one and the same what’s your take on that yeah books is just another form of
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thought leadership and it always has been but we have i mean i feel like everyone is writing a
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book now no no matter your title there’s people working on books and so we have many
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clients who release books while we’re working together and are we book publicists we’re not um will we schedule
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book tours not our sweet spot however typically that book
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is a long version of what we’ve been pitching and how we’ve been positioning this individual as a thought leader and
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so we’re able to use the book as another way to point back towards those thought leadership pillars and pull out specific
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sections of the book or paragraphs or quotes within the book and leverage those and use those in other ways it’s
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just another form of thought leadership um and we have so many clients writing books
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that is insane um have you seen the book concept slightly comical lindsay i can tell so let’s let’s pull
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apart what’s the difference in a book that works on book that doesn’t in your mind oh gosh you know what i’m saying because
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i i can sense a little bit of you being like yeah it’s great thanks honey great great job on that book
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like what does it have to be to matter let’s assume let’s assume it is uh if we’re comparing
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authors that no one’s ever heard of okay yes right so there’s many of them yeah uh
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certainly who you were before the book came out if
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you are an evangelist in something and tend to have people who view you as an influencer and
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this isn’t like you know jay leno on the street you ask 100 people they’re all going to say never heard that person i’m not talking that level of influence but
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within a category or it could be ai ops for example
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something highly specific and exhilarating super sexy love aiops
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but if you build the community already that was influencer
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your book will likely do well because those people want more of you if you are
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a cmo at a random sas company that hasn’t really been an evangelist of a
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specific problem or you know position as a thought leader it’s it’s not going to do as well
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because people don’t have already connection with you and don’t want more of what you have to say
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let’s unpack that because i i i completely agree with you and i think it’s like chicken of the egg concept that i struggle with in pr which is
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you need people to already care about you for pr to work yet without people caring about you you kind of need pr
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sure and so it’s like this like in other words like i’m sure when you worked with moz like i know you work with moz
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working with moz is like probably the world’s easiest thing in the world because you just have rand be rant compared to trying to do the same thing
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for sem rush right like that isn’t gonna work the same like you can do a story for moz get it picked up because you
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have a narrative you have distribution you’ve got rand fishkin to tweet it and it gets a hundred retweets
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it works all of a sudden everything rand does for pr works doing pr for drift works because if dave gerhart tweets
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something it does well in petsu but he has a community so if you’re trying to be a sas company and
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you want to get a buzz you want to be the next fast or the next whatever right
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like there’s some companies that are just good at the game of buzz do you start to do the content first or
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do you build the audience first like how do you go about getting from no one caring about you
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to someone caring about you as a sas company in your mind yeah and and i’ll i’ll answer this in the
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context of my world so i’ll answer in the context of pr because there’s a lot of other
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ways to address that that are outside of of our discipline the interesting thing with
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pr and when i look at across our client base and again our client base just for the sake of any
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example i give all b2b sas company of various sizes we have well-funded series a companies all the way up to publicly
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traded everything in between and moz is a perfect example uh moz when we
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when we started working with moz a few years ago rand had just exited sarah byrd new ceo in
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uh sarah wasn’t known as a thought leader but moz was already the the category leader so
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we had the brand weight behind it and so that works but what we’ve typically found is for
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our clients that don’t have high brand recognition and where their primary spokes people
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haven’t been very vocal we’ve never had an issue
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building thought leadership for their spokespeople in the press and i will go back to that being able to tell
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a story and find something interesting if you’re able to work with a a
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spokesperson that’s willing to go against the grain and say something bold and different you will have much higher
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success rate where we don’t have a high success rate is when there’s they’re very risk-averse
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and they are not willing to and i’m not even saying be highly controversial or attach ourselves to new highly charged
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topics but you know in a world where everyone is praising you know maybe it’s
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bi tools and everybody loves tableau is how can we go in and say why companies should
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abandon traditional bi as we know it and you tend to refute that in the piece itself or in the conversation
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but you have to be willing to get out there and say something bold and we’ve successfully successfully had you know client quotes as part of trend stories
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alongside these huge brands and compared to them they have very low brand awareness but we’re able to offer
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interesting and different perspective um so there’s not a there’s not a right or wrong time to start you just have to
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start and understand with whether that’s an internal comms person or using an agency
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what are what’s your perspective what are you willing to talk about what are the national narratives that are happening with or without you that
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you’re comfortable attaching yourself to and how you’re going to add value to that conversation and you can start to
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build from there you can start in the trade press well trade press wants to hear from everyone trust me um
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garrett i’m sure you’ve been reading ad age or ad week or wherever you get your news the drum and you will see a
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quote from someone or a contributed piece and you’re like who the hell is that
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or you’re like you look up their agency on linkedin you’re like it’s a 10 person agency
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with no clients i’ve ever heard of like how are they being featured in this because somebody took the time to pitch
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them and offer something interesting to say yep no i love that experience
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no of all the time i mean it’s you know it’s like it’s like you i mean i did this like so i used to pitch 15 horrors
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a day when i started directive there you go i wouldn’t work everything it was like
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it was like what are the ways to fix a bad table i was like have pennies i mean i was i was quoted everywhere and
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anywhere just because i was trying to build our authority i wanted to rank and it worked right number one for seo
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agency and at the time it was a big driver of our growth so
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i’m a big fan of it for a lot of different reasons i think the part i struggle with and i know this has got to
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be the bane of your existence is how do we tie it back to revenue in your mind like how are you telling that
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narrative to your clients because i think a lot of marketers are like yeah lindsay i got to tell my story you’re right i should create buzz you’re right
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i should be more active you’re right i shouldn’t just go with the grain if i want people to care about me i have to have bold opinions i’m a little scared
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but i agree all that’s great though but at the end of the day how do i tie back me getting quoted in
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adweek or me getting quoted in techcrunch to pipeline to
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the things i’m being held accountable to as a cmo right what’s that narrative that you help you know i think your
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clients tell the board themselves and others to get funding and to keep funding good pr
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so i’ll start by reiterating a quote that i love which is scaling revenue wins
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quarters and strong brands win categories one one can’t exist without the other
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there is no bottom of the funnel without the top there is no top without the bottom the funnel wouldn’t exist
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what we do and this is just what we do i mean it is cracks me up because it’s
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very obvious and please other people can steal us if they want um here’s what traditionally happens
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so cmo goes into their quarterly business report they say here
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for all our marketing objectives for the quarter here’s all the levers that we pulled to meet them this is good job and they say oh yeah
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and look we also got press coverage that’s literally what happens there’s like this little cliff note there and
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also uh also we’re featured in this great i was on three podcasts and they were like okay right and then you’re
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like cool super um what we do is at the beginning of our
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relationships and then subsequently each quarter if they change is we say what are
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cmo your quarterly marketing objectives on which you’re you’re being measured they say here they are
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awesome we work off of okr framework so objectives and key results where the objective is the
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client marketing objective and then we build pr krs underneath that
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so for and what why we do this is to help our cmo tie our work to
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business results so if for example they say well one of my goals is to
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increase organic traffic by 20 maybe that’s one
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the krs under that for pr would sound like at least 50 of all coverage contains a
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backlink the average domain authority on sites that we’re securing coverage is 60 or
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higher x percent of coverage that we secure contains the targeted keyword phrase
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insert targeted keyword phrase for seo it becomes less about did we get
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coverage and more about are we securing coverage that’s helping you reach your objectives
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so then right same quarterly business report you march in here’s my objectives pr is one of the levers that help you
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reach that one yeah it’s always a disjointed thing that you’ve accidentally devalued i don’t
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know why i don’t have a budget for pr it’s like well you’re acting as if your budget for pr doesn’t matter right
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and that’s the narrative and and if i like make magic happen i would tell
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i would tell ceos to stop measuring the roi friend stop trying to do it
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it is one of those areas of your spend that you can very rarely attribute any direct
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roi but if you get rid of it everything else suffers yeah
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why are we why are we why are we trying to figure out the direct roi of it
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we know we have to do it and we know that a strong brand all things considered equal is what wins
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so stop trying to measure it so what’s this how do you get the stop start though cause i think the real killer for you is the stop start and what i mean by
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that is like in pr i see it as a building blocks narrative that you need to be really
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consistent with over an extended period of time and if you plant enough seeds eventually you’ll reap what you sell
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right like kind of that mentality and what i find and this is very like
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true about indirect channels and marketing i found is any types of change
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internally with your client any type of market change any type of financial instability any type of
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anything they pause their indirect channels and then the second they realize that
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they’ve suffered from it they turn them back on and it’s like this stop start kind of like thing that i know happens
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to me like on content marketing so i’m sure it happens to you on pr these are more indirect channels that people see
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as a nice to have not a need to have yet every time they stop doing them they’re like oh my god we need it so
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how do you fight that narrative because i think that’s a really big part of this and like how can we help marketers better understand how to be consistent
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through change and maybe not markets executives boards because you know every time there’s a new cmo
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it’s like stop start change sure and then the brand goes down yeah
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um i i will ask that question or answer that question with a question
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would you ever advise a client to just go dark on
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social media because they’re they were cutting budget no
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no never companies would never go silent
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on social media so why would you ever if you again if you have a well-oiled machine
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why would you ever go silent on the pr front
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those that are paying attention to you your competitors specifically and potentially investors
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they’ll notice and it’s not if you never had if you didn’t have a pr
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strategy to begin with and you’re silent anyway it’s fine whatever uh but it it
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matters and again it goes back to that like well it’s we’re not attributing direct roi to
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it well guess what you’re giving your competitors a chance to do right is when they’re on the phone and
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all things considered equal they’re gonna say yeah you know i used to see them everywhere too they’ve gone quiet makes me wonder
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what’s up with them yeah no i think it’s such a it’s such a good point and i
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so let’s take this from the other way of like the negative side to the positive who’s the best in sas at pr
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let’s say you know non-client of yours who do you look at you’re like dang i’m jealous like that’s
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inspirational like those are the people i want to work with and what makes them great in your mind yeah i would say
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drift comes to mind immediately and i have a good contacts over there trisha
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gellman is a newer cmo and drift has done a phenomenal job
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at alignment throughout the entire organization on
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who drift is and what drift stands for that the experience no matter what your
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experience is if it’s a customer if it’s a partner if you’re even speaking at a one on one of their webinars
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the experience that you have from start to finish with a sdr
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all the way through to a conversation with a ceo your experience is the same
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and they have also reflected that certainly externally but that is a
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cohesive message you talk about a strong narrative and pushing the same like everyone there whether it’s true or like
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genuine or not seems to drink the drift kool-aid they have internal evangelists that when they are featured or when they
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have a you know their ceo’s featured everyone shares it and talks about it
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and evangelizes it and that is part of what makes their brand one of the best
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brands and the strongest one out there and when you ask people who do you want to emulate oh i’d love to be more like drift
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love it right how do you measure though i guarantee that they are not sitting in a board
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meeting talking about how we’re measuring the strength of our brand and all of our brand spend
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because what are we going to do change it if we can’t attribute a direct roi we just screw up the brand and try something new
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no because it’s working um so they they are definitely an example that comes to mind um
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that is not a client of ours no i love that i think now we have one more piece of sour candy are you ready
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yeah do i i’m gonna switch to a warhead now i will uh the toxic waste was terrible and then
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it got sweet and it was good i kept waiting for another wave of the terribleness and it was okay
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i’m not gonna do apple i do not like fake apple flavored things i’m gonna go
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with the warhead watermelon extreme sour side note for everyone who tunes into
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this show i’m allergic to melons so i know melon stuff wild i’ve never known
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someone who has been allergic to melon what do you mean what’s in it what is it that what you’re allergic to oh no
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i’m like not very good about that kind of stuff in my life i already don’t like it i can’t hear it it’s horrible i’m like
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it’s not going so much worse oh no i know no
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what’s a better thing and this is mostly clients you probably don’t even work
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with like pre-series a seed rounded companies building in public i like to call bragging in public
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um is there a better way to share our organizations than just doing this
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building and public thing that everybody seems to retweet yet as you
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grow as an executive you find yourself further and further from those types of humans and you realize those types of
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humans that you’re collecting and you’re building a public are rarely the same ones you monetize or
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the ones that fit your either internal hiring goals or your external client goals
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so i find this building a public thing to not actually be that wise because i haven’t found
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like the right clients or the right hires are motivated by that so like what
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can companies do instead am i missing something here am i crazy like what’s your take on this building in public and uh how can we maybe do it better or
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different um i’m actually not familiar with the phrase building in public okay um can
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you unpack that a little bit more for me yeah so what people love to do on social media especially founders is they’ll do
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this like share their company so buffer for example kind of pioneered
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this so buffer will share like how much revenue they made this month with the entire world they’ll be
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sharing like this is our growth you know here’s some of the struggles we’re encountering and they kind of like build
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this very fake narrative that they’re 100 in control of of their brand on social media and then
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the goal is is that you see it and you’re inspired by it and you want to join them or be a part of it it’s kind
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of like an open it’s like opening up the book into your organization like if barstool did it
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around money instead of like creative talent in other words barcelona’s doing
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it because they’re a talent company that tries to make their talent their content these people are doing it because they’re trying to make their company
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into like this inside view of it to like get well it’s a pr strategy yeah
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yeah it’s an interesting one and i get it the culture of transparency and i’m
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you know i’m i’m all for a love of transparency we
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we share our financial health with our agents every quarter um but
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not we share enough so they understand um how we’re doing
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uh but so i understand that the interesting thing is though when it comes time for a funding announcement
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uh they won’t share revenue so we’ll see you know they’ll say okay
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got series b whatever do you say we’re like okay cool um and we know what
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they don’t but oh well you know certainly editor will always ask by the way they will always ask for uh revenue
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they will always ask for evaluation uh you are not required to give any of those uh you have a better chance of uh
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story but then you get to that point like oh we’re not sharing revenue like well [Music]
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literally like a year ago though this is where you were so they could probably do some backwards
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math um but from a true startup standpoint we can
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approach with a lot of startups yeah and we say no to most of them and here’s
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why i would say pr you are best served as a true startup investing in
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pr on a project basis to amplify your big moments so
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if you have a new ceo that is well known or that even if they’re not
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well known your local press your trade press will will pick that up um do project work around certainly a
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funding announcement maybe a new product announcement to get some firepower behind that it does not make sense for
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you as a startup to invest long term in pr yet
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if pr is going to be your largest marketing line item spend per month you are not ready for pr
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here’s why as the marketing lead as much as you might believe in pr and
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say brand brand brand trust me your ceo every 90 days will say
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well how many leads has it brought us and you’re going to say
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well it looks like based on analytics it was three marketing qualified leads you
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will have this conversation every month if not every quarter and it just doesn’t work it doesn’t and
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it’s a six month engagement or whatever it is and and we’re done um that money is much better spent long term
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into demand i i always say if if what you need is leads which i will question because do you need leads or do you need
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customers you can go out and buy just really shitty leads but if you’re looking for if you need more
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leads don’t invest in pr if what you need is more qualified leads
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once they get to you through your other channels pr can certainly assist with that i love
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that no it’s such great nuance lindsay and this has been an amazing time together for anyone who wants to learn more about what you’re doing follow
32:42
along with your story um blast media what’s the best way for them to do that uh you can hit me up on linkedin
32:49
or go to our website which is just blastmedia.com i also host a podcast called sas half
32:56
full that is designed for b2b sas marketers so um give a list in there if you’re interested in being a guest you
33:02
can hit me up there as well but this has been awesome it was not too painful um they were both pretty terrible i
33:09
would say the toxic waste was the worst it is and i’ve just had my second one it
33:14
is just getting worse yeah it was bad lizzie you made it through the show sour
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that’s an episode thank you so much everybody and see you next week
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[Music]