Sour & SaaS – Season 5 Episode 2 – with VP of Marketing at Seamless.AI, Jonathan Pogact

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yes [Music]
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well hello everybody and welcome to another episode of sour and sass i am very excited to be joined today by the
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vp of marketing of seamless ai jonathan pogat welcome to the show jonathan hey what’s up garrett
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excited to be here you just outclassed me today i have a jacket over there i could grab it if it
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you always keep the jacket on standby dress yeah i know you have to right you never know when
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you need to look smart like it’s uh oh man my grandfather would always say i
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look smarter than i looked and i don’t know if i should repeat that no no man well it is sour and sass we’re
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gonna try something new we’re gonna start with sour candy and then we’re gonna start are you ready all right let’s go um funny story my nine-year-old
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i think ate that so i have some toxic waste is this fair yeah you’re good that’s it mine have
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been out i did not cover them and their stales all get out great
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okay so let’s start with the heavy hitter and
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i’m just kidding what marvel oh yeah it gets worse um
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why no content in the menu you’ve got such a streamlined menu at seamless and what was your logic and
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thought process behind really creating a transactional funnel
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in my opinion what was kind of your thought of vp of marketing what are you trying to accomplish here
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i think that’s part of the evolution of just our company right and what we do for our content strategy
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today is take a complete surround sound approach to where people can find us and how people can find us
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so we are very heavy on linkedin uh we take a founder-led approach to our linkedin strategy you’ll see brandon
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bordanson on there multiple times per day throughout the week uh making the most
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of that platform we help support of course through our seamless content we create courses that are accessible
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through our platform and through youtube we have three number one bestseller amazon books where people can discover
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us sometimes for the first time via amazon where we’re selling which sounds crazy to me every time i hear it we sell
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hundreds of books per day and a majority of them are through organic sales on amazon
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and we just kind of give give all across social media so by the time somebody
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finds us really what we want to do is have them ready to have a conversation so i’ve
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i’ve played i’ve done both sides right i’ve managed websites and when i worked on the agency side of things we’d always
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encourage all the content to live right on the website to create one robust experience we’re trying to blanket the market in
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terms of how and where people can find us so that by the time they get there they’re informed they’re ready
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and uh we can have a conversation with them about how we can help them drive more sales i love that and i think
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i think it’s a very evolved approach i think i’m trying to do something similar right like this show and all this stuff
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a lot of it lives live it’s very much about distribution i think that’s a lot of what you’re saying is it
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linkedin has better distribution than your blog right like youtube probably has better distribution amazon has better
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distribution it seems like you’re optimizing your content strategy to distribution over let’s say organic
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distribution because you’re right seo is still distribution i guess i haven’t seen i like your approach i
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haven’t seen a lot of people take it why do you think more marketers are afraid to go against the grain like
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what do you think that because it it’s almost like this group think mentality because it’s not like it’s actually working for most people they just do it
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because they’re supposed to so like walk me through maybe a little bit of your mentality around not doing things just
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because you’re supposed to i think that’s a great question and we have a podcast too by the way so that’s another distribution channel right yeah
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i think where a lot of marketers get really stuck is that they’re trying to measure everything they’re trying to measure everything down to an mql right
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like where where did jonathan come from right and if that doesn’t show up on a report
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then it’s going to be very hard for them to justify to their c-suite their ceo and their board right whoever whoever
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the stakeholders are i gave you a dollar how much money did i make you’re like i don’t know if it was a dollar like
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where’d the dollar come from so i think a lot of it starts honestly with the leadership right and and the mentality
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and uh having a team that’s bought into marketing i think you have to be sold on marketing first to be you know
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ultimately get sold on sales and where uh customers are coming from because the podcast who came from the podcast
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it’s not showing up on my dashboard right right good luck on trying to do a podcast attribution right who who bought
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a book from amazon good luck trying to get any data from amazon yeah connecting the dots between amazon book sales and
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demo requests right like good luck you don’t but where where that does show
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up though is it shows up in very personal emails to our team to our ceo shows up in the
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in mail box right right we we get in emails probably about 75 to 150 emails
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per day to brandon’s inbox alone from customers from prospects people that aren’t customers right but that are in
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sales saying like wow i read your book and it was so insightful i got so much information out of it that uh it helped turn around my
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pipeline after a few months that’s where it shows up right shows up in cs in our team and our email and
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retention rates it just doesn’t show up as a one-to-one attribution but we know it’s impactful because we see it we hear
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it and um we’re gonna keep doing it so jonathan conversely
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let’s play devil’s advocate just for a millisecond because i actually totally do agree with you
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if you’re not doing things that you can directly attribute to roi
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but you’re not for most part like i juice your strategy and you’re not how do you get approval
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is that just like and let’s assume you don’t have a ceo with a massive linkedin following who happens to help marketing
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out by writing books or doing live shows in this case or whatever that is right like i think you’re talking to a guy as ceos totally
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bought into marketing yeah i found that most my customers that is not the case
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so if someone’s listening to the show right now they’re like yeah jonathan this is great your ceo though
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does linkedin every day and has like 2 billion followers so of course it works what about me where
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you know my ceo isn’t really into marketing and i like how how does someone make a business case for
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non-attributable concepts that will grow revenue in your mind yeah i think you have to
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start building the business case and you do have to tie it to a goal in some way or another right and even though it’s
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not going to be directly attributable the the goal behind it could be hey i have a great strategy for
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uh landing and expanding accounts right we’re going to create this new podcast where we interview the the dms from our
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our best customers and we’re going to get them even more bought in at my company that’s just one idea right and you can
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spin off a podcast right there and have it deeply rooted into a goal right and that goal could be retention or churn
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mitigation or something we’re going to look at trailing 12 months of demos and what after we publish the amazon
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book we’re going to see if demos go up and once again try to tie that back let’s say the demos or whatever that is
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and there’s ways to attribute it even if it’s not like what was the value of the podcast directly or what was the value
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of the amazon book one to one we can still use blanket kpis and then measure them against historicals right
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100 100 right and those things can also become sales enablement tools
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for your sales team to go to market to help increase uh pipeline right to help shorten sales cycles to help get more
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business from your competitors it all works right so like yeah we’re not doing all this stuff because it feels good
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we’re doing all this stuff because we know at the end of the day right it’s going to help our sales team close more deals it’s going to help
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retain more customers it’s going to help bring net new people to to seamless
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right and you know we wouldn’t be doing all this stuff if it wasn’t driving more users driving more demos uh you know
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helping out with uh sales enablement and with our cs team you know with retention
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that no no i’m right there with you now you have another thing i’ve never seen before now
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first off are you ready oh boy let’s go i already have it lined up oh
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i can barely even bite these off they’re so still
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so you have like the worlds i think this is actually in guinness somewhere longest demo page
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so can you walk me through it obviously works but it like totally
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reminds me of a click funnels like landing page that i would see if i was
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if like you were selling diet pills but you’re selling like sales software and it’s working so walk
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me through why once again you kind of zig while everybody else is zagging and what you’re doing on the demo page
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yeah to start off you’re right the second one is worse which is weird usually the second anything is a little bit better than the first but
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um in this case it’s not so the demo page um so what we’re trying to do there is cater to as many personas
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as we can or or actually conversion based actions
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many right blocks right i’m not ready because of this i’m not ready because of that exactly i’m not quite convinced
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because i haven’t heard about this yet yep if if you’re one of those people that are just ready you want to get to
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the demo don’t show me any bs right i just want to get to it we’ve got that but we also overwhelm with social proof
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as well if somebody wants to do a little bit more research maybe not quite ready we do give them the opportunity to
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check out our case studies right which we call presidents club anybody that sold six or seven figures with seamless
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you know we’ll interview them get more content by the way and then we’ll uh you know use that on our sales pages but
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uh we include all of our social proof anything that anybody would need in order to make a better decision when it
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comes to seamless it’s there so you don’t want to scroll great don’t just book a demo like you normally would right like a normal like your everyday
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sas company would do right your form on the right your copy on the left but if you’re not quite ready yet you
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know we give you the opportunity to shop us while you’re still on the page
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now i don’t think you’re in risk of other people just copying here because i do think it’s that innovative and it’s
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that disruptive to like what people think is quote unquote good branding
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yet nothing that matters if it makes you money or more money have you tested it like how did you land on this spot i
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guess what i’m curious about like how did you get to this type of landing page or did it was that initial concept or
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like what was the evolution that got you here because i think that says equally of an interesting story for the book of
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demo yeah exactly because i’m not curious like how you got there like did you just was that like a raw idea one time or did
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you evolve to it or how’d that happen it’s an evolution with everything right yeah at first you start off with what everybody else is doing which is a form
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you know unfortunately that’s where a lot of that’s where you start off and you should actually right like what’s working for another company that you
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think that you can borrow ideas from right um and and with average actions
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you you typically will end up with average results which might get you off to the races
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yep right uh but then you’re always looking to beat yourself you’re always looking then you’re looking to be you know uh
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the rule or the exception not the real i think right and that’s where you start to innovate a little bit more right you obviously
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learn a lot from other companies out there we learn a lot from other industries as well which has always been
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in my back pocket especially having an agency background like when i worked in edu we learned a lot from healthcare
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you know i work with technology companies i learned a lot from uh these
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more entrepreneurial startup companies which were a little bit scrappier that had a little bit more innovation because
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they could they could afford the risk yeah and that’s kind of where we play
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we’re trying to play in is like what’s best in class and what’s plus one what can we do to help plus one that
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right what would we do to help plus one ourselves because um you know as a fast growing company i’m sure a lot of your audience
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could appreciate this we can’t afford to keep doing the same thing over and over again like we have to continue to grow right
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we’re serving a massive challenge massive need in the market um scale is really the only option
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no i love where your head’s out there and you mentioned the president’s club that was a note i had in preparation for this
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the president’s club’s dope like tell me what your idea there is like what you’re trying to do because i love any type of
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like customer marketing that then goes back into acquisition so i think if you can go like full flywheel effect right of
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like expanding the client growing the account increasing your attention but then also using that information to
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acquire more accounts and then repeat that process it’s a very cool like flywheel you have there um tell me more
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about what you’re trying to do with it and kind of how why you came up with this and a little bit more about the president’s club yeah i mean i think he
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nailed it it’s a flywheel right but but it um it does it works amazing so
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anybody that’s in sales knows what president’s club is right they might be working for a company that has their own
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president’s club and it it’s always going to be tied back to how many how much sales have you generated as an ae
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as a sales team as an individual last year or whatever it may be right and we came up with the idea to help celebrate
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the sales contributors and teams and leaders that are using seamless right because that’s what we’re there for we’re there to help people make more
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money in their sales right by getting them amazing data and coverage so
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uh created presidents club to a celebrate our clients but also create that flywheel right so um we do a pretty
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cool thing for our winners if you sold six seven eight figures with seamless using seamless we’ll interview you we’ll
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get content out of it we’ll do an interview just like this we send them a huge award which you probably need right
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and you know they put it on their wall because it’s awesome they celebrate it on social media it gets the word out there again
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um and it just it’s a flywheel like you mentioned it helps uh helps with retention helps celebrate our best
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customers too which is really the intention behind it and of course social proof is going to breed you know um uh attraction to the
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platform yeah no i completely agree now another thing you’ve done that i think
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is different is most people still have written case studies
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and you’ve gone all in on video it looks like so in your mind
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because i do find like case studies
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i totally agree with video but it’s hard in my mind because case studies are such like a
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distributed asset off of your website like they’re very much like people sharing pdfs to some
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like person who they have to get approval from and then it makes it look like they
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covered their butt and so they like checked out this case study that susan set up and you know jill felt good
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signing off because of it you know what i mean like i feel like it’s very much like this kind of like risk-averse like
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asset that people use internally to buy things like look at they work with these people look it’s a case study i i did my
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research i’m not a bad chooser of technology yeah like i feel like that’s a big part of it do you get less of that with video do
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you get more of that like how how does video fit in that like kind of ironic and comical but also real
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reality you know i think we’re talking about social proof right i think social proof wins at the
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end of the day but it’s interesting that you bring up case study right like we actually don’t call these case studies for us even though they are at the end
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of the day if you think about it right a case study is what is the company that uh what does the company say about the
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work that they’ve done for other customers in their words yeah and there’s a there’s a certain
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degree of authenticity when it comes to that basically what it means is you got approval from that company to use their
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logo and the words that you put together to build out why they keep paying you money
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and and maybe you got a 15 discount for that too maybe you got a little discount right or
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yeah you probably just you proved it right it’s needed like right we we need to know as buyers i’m a buyer of
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technology and services like i need to know that the risk boy there’s some stuff in the
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middle too oh yeah it doesn’t stop man we need to have some comfort in that our
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investment is worthwhile right yeah um that it’s worked for other companies that look like us
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right of course i want to know like hey garrett like your agency work with other really fast growing sas companies right
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and if you’re like well we have one probably not gonna have another call with you but if it’s like yeah of course
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look at my track record i’m gonna go all right well that’s funny right now yeah well that’s interesting right yeah
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uh tell me a little bit more so it’s a little bit outside of the box in terms of the traditional case study because
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they are saying it for themselves on behalf of themselves and we turn that into sales enablement too in the written
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word right and some pdfs but we’re using video first we’re using the authenticity first we’re not giving
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these winners a script at all they’re they’re off the cuff we’re going hey how did you how did you earn six
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figures seven figures eight figures were seamless and then they go and that’s when you get the real raw
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like sound bites too for the product and like the things and i think from a research standpoint for you right you
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can take that information bring it back into the copy of the landing pages and do your content to really get people
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from apathy to action with the words of your customers i think that’s really cool now we talked about
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distribution earlier you didn’t mention a very important channel distribution that i’m actually
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curious about which is your chrome extension how effective is our chrome extensions for new
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business acquisition not just as like a product feature for existing customers
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boy that’s a good question i mean our chromosome extension is where the magic happens right so it’s like one of your
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competitors did a pretty decent job growing their business and data with a uh extension so i’m going to make
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curiosity if you have a service that works anywhere via chrome extension you have to go all in on that right it’s how we
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browse these days right like it’s not a it’s not an anomaly to have you nice to
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have anymore in your mind if you’re a if you’re not if you’re a browser like if the job to be done using your software
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is done in a browser you need a chrome extension in your opinion you have to have it plain i love to hear
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what does it do for you why do you need to have it what in your mind as a marketer i know what it does as a product user but maybe give me that
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whole like thing of why chrome extensions are so critical well it’s the experience and it’s the
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workflow and it’s the time savings right so you always have to think about things in the lens of your customers and what
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they can do with that chroma session to make their lives easier move faster build pipeline faster find contacts
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faster right like we don’t always want to log into a separate platform to do
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the things that we want to do chrome extension is with me everywhere i go so it’s really about the user experience
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and the results that users can get customers can get by using that so if you have the opportunity to build a
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chrome extension or if you haven’t put much weight into the chrome extension i would go all in on it because that’s how
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we’re using that’s how we’re browsing the web these days now is that just because your industry and
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your vertical and your persona expects it like to play i guess conversely right because
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data knives i remember back in the day data knives i feel like kind of started this like data nice had the chrome extension right yeah and then you
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started to see reach out and then you started to see seamless you start to see all the different chrome extensions outreach.ios extension right like all
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the player to service sales chrome extension is like a huge part now
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if you just go over like two inches to the left hubspot what’s their extension like i don’t really
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what’s ahrefs extension like what’s semrush what’s so like in other words you and i as marketers we don’t really
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use chrome extensions yet sales people live and die on them so do you think it has something to do with the sales industry
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as well or kind of what’s your take on that i think if uh if you really think about it it’s what can you do what would this
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look like if it were easier and if a chrome extension is the answer to that then that’s what you do
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like keep it simple right like is there a better way of doing this yep that’s it i think that’s plain and
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simple you know what would this look like if it were easy is there a better way of doing this and if the chrome extension’s the answer you do it like i
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use built with on every website i go to because it’s just so easy same like you just hit the button
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right i still have those like i have detailed which is like an seo chrome extension like a better version of the moz bar in my mind but it’s the same
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like idea right so some people like i used to use that moss chrome extension forever i don’t know if you remember
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that one i do but that was that was how like i would get their domain rating or their page authority or something yeah
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um now pricing it’s not in the menu
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it is in the phone why like what why not in the menu i imagine if you throw that thing in the
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menu it’s gonna be like your most trafficked page so kind of what’s your concept of the buyer journey and kind of not having it
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apparently start with price or making price something you have to seek out yeah i know that’s a big topic
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the reason is because not not everybody fits into a package right if you think about um
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companies that are 11 to 50 compared to companies that are 500 plus like the
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need the data needs and the workflow needs are just going to be so vastly different across them that there’s no
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way to put that into a bucket when it comes to data these days right an enterprise sales person ae enterprise ae
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compared to a high transaction sas ae very different data needs very different
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workflow needs very different integration needs and and because of that it really does require
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you know some sales intervention there or some consultative uh um conversations
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around like what’s really the best thing for you unfortunately we’re the size that we can do that for our customers
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like we don’t have to force you into the three packages or the four packages right like which virtually everybody
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does salesforce slack other other data providers as well but um we can still be
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flexible and work with you in terms of like what’s gonna fit your needs and what’s the best option for you
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data’s a moving target sales is a moving target works well with selling into sales though too i’m sure where they’re going
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to want to negotiate and they’re going to want to talk about it and there’s a whole game when you’re selling sales
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people right sales sales people want to win the sale
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and as long as you win too everybody won right yeah exactly i mean that’s that’s
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also part of it right it’s like we want to we want to do what’s right for our customers at the end of the day because
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we want to hold on to them and do right by them for a very long time yep no i love that now
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part of this that not a lot of people talk about but i think it’s super interesting there’s not a lot of content on this amazon so you wrote three books right i think
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that’s three books as a like the ceo contributed on amazon yep yeah on amazon
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well how if other marketers are hearing that and they’re like well amazon is a massive search engine
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it’s hugely important in the educational informational stage of the buyer journey
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um if you want to sell upstream i found c-level executives are more likely to
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read a book than a blog post they can bring it on their travel with them there’s just a lot of pieces to that
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uh how can other marketers go about learning from your amazon strategy and
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and what what goes into a good amazon book can we self-publish it do we need to go through a publishing house
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like what’s that experience like what how can you give us a little bit more information around how we can leverage amazon to maybe write a book for our
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industry and then generate awareness yeah well first you have to think about like do you have something to say that’s
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unique or do your customers have something to say that you can leverage to turn into content that would be
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valuable to the market right whoever your persona is or who you’re selling into uh chances
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are it’s a yes right because you have a company that sells services and they probably sell services for a very good
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reason because they’re solving a challenge and a problem in the market so think about what that looks like first uh the other thing is you don’t need a
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big publisher i don’t even think you want a really big publisher to be honest right uh there are
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so many resources out there when it comes to self-publishing just google it up you can find somebody to help you
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write the book if you need it we wrote it ourselves we didn’t use an outsourced ghostwriter or anything like
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that but there are resources like that you can find editors out there that can help you with editing
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um you know design work for the cover use as any designer of your choice really um
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amazon will give you the playbook in terms of what that should look like and uh it is seo
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a lot of it is seo right so think about what you’re trying to solve the content that you’re trying to create and who it’s for uh because amazon’s its own
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animal when it comes to seo optimization it’s a zone animal when it comes to paid media but to your point um
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you know we we started off with the physical book and then we went all right well let’s release an ebook and the hypothesis or the the
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the guess was like hey we’re probably going to sell a lot more of these ebooks because it’s cheaper and it’s not true at all we sell more of the hardbound
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books you know more of the uh physical the tactile experience
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there we go i like that people are fighting back they’re um they’re buying more of the
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physical book than the ebook so there’s a lot to be said about that um but i
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would recommend it if you can i know a lot of people are gonna be like well my ceo it’s not like that rather stays behind the scenes i’ve heard all of that
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too and it’s your job to get that information out of whoever that is right
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it doesn’t happen there’s interviews or however you can get that subject matter expertise
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now the art do you see yourselves writing more books like cause i’m guessing now the point is not the revenue from the book sales i would
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imagine it’s no point it’s not so you know do you see that as a strategy where you can take
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the let’s say jobs to be done of your persona through your products use case and then just keep repeating that
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playbook do you think that’s scalable to a certain extent it’s scalable right like just think about your your ideal
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client your persona that you’re targeting whatever it is what are the challenges that they face every day what what do they need in order to be
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successful like what tools do they need whether it’s mindset whether it’s strategy whether it’s execution
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like think about all of those things as it comes to your as it pertains to your content because you can probably help
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them out in all those areas yep i love that now last one are you ready
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my mouth is almost destroyed all right i’m gonna go for the blue one hopefully
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then the green now oh man i wasn’t able to easily find it so it’s
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probably on me but after the more we’ve been talking this interview the more i’m gonna learn about seamless the more community
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becomes such a critical part of the strategy if i’m sitting in your seat so you know
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for directive we’ve launched society it’s a free community for sas markers over a
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thousand members it’s been really really great for us high correlation
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to demos and even closed one it’s a big part of you know what we want to do here
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you have a very similar actual marketing strategy to myself and how we view the world i think so where are you with community and kind
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of how does that fit what are you doing today what do you want to do because i i do see as a huge piece for you very curious it’s a big opportunity and it’ll
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continue to be a big opportunity it’s like how do you mobilize all not only just like your customers and your users
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but all of your fans out there yeah you have a sales attacker in your space right they literally require for
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the community use case you’ve got like a serious craving i feel like on linkedin for community that’s why your ceo does
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so well sales is massive on linkedin right i got some x guys here who are salespeople who have massive followings
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yeah on it on linkedin so yeah like for you how do you want to execute do you want to be a slack group do you want to
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be more private content like what does that look like in your mind yeah we started that out about six eight months ago or so with a
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private facebook group called president’s club private we invite them we invite all our users and customers to
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president’s club directly um as an opportunity for them to foster community within the sales community
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and we get questions and answers direct access to myself brandon anybody on our
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team as well if we can help them out with the platform but it’s mostly for them to talk about how to win in sales
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um how that evolves there’s obvious opportunities out there um you know with slack groups i’m a big fan
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of of some of the slack groups that are out there like uh like rev genius i’m a big fan of them sales hacker as well we
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engage with all of those groups we’re part of all those groups um linkedin just came out with their beta for
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product groups which i think is super interesting that we’re you know testing out uh while they’re in beta
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to see if it’s viable i’ve not been a big fan of linkedin groups but yeah those kind of stung but they have such
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good distribution right now on their channel for creators that if that could get you some like being a first mover if
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that could get you an advantage i think it’s totally worth exploring right absolutely so we’re always looking at
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testing things yeah when linkedin launches new features i found that they juice them you know what i mean like they really juice those
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features like if it’s going live on linkedin they’re gonna juice it if it’s their new product group they’re gonna
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juice it so i love where your heads at man that’s really smart now in closing uh can you maybe give anyone
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who um is listening just a quick uh elevator pitch on how seamless is
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different than the other kind of data providers and then we can wrap up yep so seamless helps any sales
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contributor leader ae rep sdr marketer entrepreneur founder you name it uh find their total addressable market do our
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real-time search engine uh seamless ai for b2b leads any email mobile or direct
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number or sales insight you can find it in seamless so why we’re different uh we
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we pride ourselves in a real-time uh technology uh search engine for b2b
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contacts so not a database that updates every month or every quarter real time every day
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sales is a moving target people are working from home changing jobs especially in sales so
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uh that’s why you know we kind of lean in on the search engine aspect of our business
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i love it i love it well thank you so much for being on the show jonathan uh if anyone wants to follow along with your journey uh what’s the best way for
30:37
them to do that linkedin there you go you got it right there linkedin jonathan pogat
30:43
hit me up on twitter too jay pogat hell yeah well hey thank you so much for being on the show jonathan and that’s
30:48
another episode of sour and sass thanks everybody [Music]